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Combining CGI and Hand-Drawn artwork 
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Post Combining CGI and Hand-Drawn artwork
Hi, guys - just thought I'd ask your opinions on something: I'm trying to work out the best way to combine the two disciplines of CGI and hand-drawn art and wondered if anyone else has tried it out or could point me in the direction of any artists who have succeeded?
(I don't mean post-render touch-up art - I mean a true combination of the styles in a way that actually works so that we'd get, say a hand-drawn face with a CGI background - or vice versa - in the same panel where the styles don't clash violently.)
As you will see from my work I seriously looooove my CGI programmes but even in the best CGI I feel that there can be an inherrent lack of dynamic movement or "drama" (for want of a better term) which can only be brought out well in the traditional comic book art style by use of the usual tricks of that trade.
I tried working with traditional pencils/inks and colours but the black line seems, to my eyes at least, to be too intrusive in a frame where all the other colours are multi-shades or at least not areas of solid monochrome.
So I did away with the black line and painted some figures against CGI backgrounds which was better but there's still something missing here - maybe it's the roughness of the painted figure against the smoothness of the CGI?
Its one of these wierd dichotomies that the closer CGI gets to depicting photo-real images the more we see the bad areas yet we seem to make a mental allowance for this when viewing traditional hand-drawn comics and so even bad art can still be extremely dynamic in a way that CGI can't.
maybe I'm looking for something that doesn't exist but I hope not - I haven't been at this gig nearly as long as some you you guys have and I'm sure it's something which will have come up before now - anyone care to enlighten this newbie?

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:24 am
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I haven't been using Poser for too long and I am grappling with similar issues.

The problem is essentially that Poser and Daz Studio etc etc are aiming towards photo-realism. Comics is not a photo-realistic medium yet 3DCG comic creators make their works with rules and conventions based on 70 years of 2D images. I think you pretty much realised as I do that the two don't mix very well. Many 2D comic effects like blur lines don't translate well into a hyper-realistic image.

Someone described adding speech balloons to 3D renders as:
"[those] 'witty' stickers you can get to put on your photographs, so you can have captions coming out of your pissed off looking cat or whatever".


For myself, I came to the conclusion that since 2D images are representative, the reader on a sub-conscious level is participating in the translation of the image. The brain automatically fills in the gaps in the picture. With a 3D render, all the detail is presented to you like a renaissance painting and as such, it can be more harshly judged for tiny imperfections that would go unnoticed in 2D or been seen as a stylism.

I don't use CG backgrounds but I have travelled a lot and taken many landscape photos that I use as backgrounds. Mixing these photo backgrounds with a CG render makes them look quite fake. To blunten the impact of this inconsistency, I've tried experimenting with "flattening" my 3D renders to something more closely approaching tradtional 2D art.

I looked around to see what was about and came across a dearth of what I can only describe as bland poser art with the dark default lighting that comes with Poser. Ugh.
Then I came across some comics that were done well but had that "Poser look" I wanted to move away from a little:
http://sixseconds.comicgenesis.com/
http://www.tmi-comic.com/index.php?strip_id=469

Then I came across some interesting comics from a visual standpoint:

Twlight Lady by Blake Chen
The post work looks like Photoshop (or maybe Poser's Toon Shader) and it does a good job of flattening out the images, adding a bit of style and atmosphere. Good if you're after that dark look but I wasn't. It did give me some ideas, though.
http://thehungryghost.com/casspt9.html

The Dreamland Chronicles
Oh wow...3D, original character designs and colourful. I want colourful, too bad I don't have the time, money and skill to pull this sort of thing off, though.
http://www.thedreamlandchronicles.com/

Crimson Dark
You can tell it's Poser, but he's done postwork that has given it a style that makes it stand apart. I really like the use of the thick ink lines that don't intrude too much upon the detail of the faces.
http://www.davidcsimon.com/crimsondark/index.php?view=comic&strip_id=88

He explains his creation process here:
http://www.davidcsimon.com/crimsondark/index.php?view=comic&strip_id=88

Purgatory
This person does a straight up Poser comic but it's one of the best I've seen!
http://www.drunkduck.com/Purgatory/index.php?p=353608


So anyway, they all made me think about the kind of "style" I wanted to try to convey. I wanted bright and colorful but I really liked the semi-cel-shaded look of Crimson Dark so I wanted noticable ink lines as well. If I used photographic backgrounds in scenes, they also needed to blend together so the combined effect wasn't jarring. If they didn't perfectly match each other stylistically, that was OK as long as both the 3D render and the photo became representative. The human mind is much more forgiving for that.

I tried using Photoshop and downloading various "Actions" but I found nothing satisfactory. Then I came across an image rendering program I really liked, so I decided to use that. It gives the 3D renders a little style, flattens them out so word bubbles and sound effects seem a bit more natural placed on top of them and photo backgrounds become abstract enough that it doesn't look jarringly super-imposed.

If you look at Japanese manga, you'll see a lot of artists aren't just amazing figure artists but also amazing technical drawers with perfectly details machines and architecture. For those slightly less talented (or more rushed), there is a use of photographs but they have been filtered to exaggerate the outlines. It works...at least for me.

You also mentioned a conflict between multi-shades and monochrome?
If you look at some modern comics from Marvel or DC, you'll see a lot of digital coloring that seem to go quite well with traditional inked art. I think you can definitely find a happy medium.

Long story short:
You have CG and hand drawings and you want to blend them together. For me it was CG and photos. What I have found to be the best solution is to transform BOTH to a middle ground. Abstract the photo enough so that the reader's brain has to do more work and "flatten" the 3D render whilst keeping (and sometimes enhancing) the detail. In the end I'm getting this kind of fusion that probably not everybody would like but it makes my Poser comic look a little more stylised and is much more forgiving to traditional comic layouts and methods.

When my own stuff is ready, I'll need to host it somewhere so I may see what Hipcomix can do for me. It's a story about Japanese-style super heroines with guns, jets and ninjas. Oh, and lots of mind-control. That's the predominante "thing".

Sorry for the long post. I wrote a lot of it just thinking about my own issues, so it helps me try and get my thoughts into place.

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:23 pm
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A couple of my own thoughts on this discussion...

A lot of cg rendered images are heavily weighted on the detailed backgrounds...one of the best ways to
lessen the impact of the 'cg effect' is to make strong use of close-ups...heighten the drama...

One of my favorite artists has always been Carmine Infantino who really made use of the balance of closeups and used silouhettes for a lot of the distance shots...

The hyper realism aspect of cg is one of the reasons that i avoid multi panel pages when working in cg comics...it just leaves too much detail on the page...there's so much going on...

As far as the lettering goes, I have been experimenting with lots of styles in my work and have avoided a white box as much as possible...

I think that we as creators are constantly breaking new ground with what we're doing...and there are lots of people searching for formats and styles that
embrace classic comic story telling and the new technologies that are evolving. That's pretty exciting...

I would like to mention the work of Sturkwurk here at Hip as someone to keep your eye on...he's built up a very nice body of work here and he's breaking new ground with each and every update.

Some years ago I remember having a conversation with Ross Andru and his advice on drawing comics was fairly straightforward... "It will start to make sense after the first two or three thousand pages you create..."

Only a few cg creators have got that kind of experience under their belt...but as a group we are all evolving as our hardware and software develops.

Nice to have a serious thread here in the Hip forums.

(Rain of Terra, we're looking for new contributors here at hip, so drop me a note about your project...it sounds interesting)


Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:27 am
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Many thanx for that guys - I knew what I was trying to say but you expressed it much better than I could. I'll check out the websites you noted and get back to you although that "middle ground" idea, if applied to both disciplines, seems sound. I'll run a few experiments and let you know what happens.
Thanks again for all the help.

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Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:44 am
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Post Hi Morpheus
I think I understand you Bill.
You want the Ummph that the hand drawn comics have.
The more photorealistic we go, the less we have the Ummph, am I right ?
Fin actually said this and it's right. Marvel have photoshop layers combining hand drawn/poser rendered/real photos, (city backdrops) on one of their things. It was actually a cover with poser rendered superheroes jumping out with a real city photo in the background.
When I first created comics I tried various photoshop filters to give it a 2D hand drawn look but it doesn't work well a lot of the time as I'm sure you have discovered. You have something rendered precisely and it turns into something rough with little detail. Flattening a whole image with a filter to create a 2D appearance seems like a backwards move.
I have problems rendering full scenes in poser anyway so I'm for--d to do a lot of compositing. With all those layers open in the most powerful image editing program in the world (photoshop) and a wacom tablet, you have the world at your feet. There is postwork and there is postwork.
Not just fixing up poke-thru but adjusting filters for each layer, lightening it up with dodge, the dark side can be furthur darkened with burn. You can make the figures really stand out from the background. Set the layer opacity back and handpaint over the figure. In the end we can go for more of a comic look and less like poser. Noone will know it was even done with poser. If you can hand draw pretty well Bill, I would go for it. I admire people that can create great poser renders but with more drama/ ummph!
:wink:
Also thanks a lot for your input Rain of Terra and the comic links.
I agree with Tim about the panels but for a different reason. Comicbooks had to pack a lot of detail into a tiny space. The web has unlimited space.
I like to get full length body shots of long legged babes so why spoil it by chopping everything up? Oh, and the most important thing, make the comic ooose with sex !!

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Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:11 am
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Post Combining Hand-Drawn and CGI Artwork
Many thanx for all the feedback, folks - it's obviously a subject which taxes the brains of all us CGI artists.
It's particlarly frustrating because I feel that I'm getting very close to achieving this elusive hybrid style - I can see it in my mind's eye but it's like a partly-remembered dream and I can't quite figure out what's missing. I've run through the usual gamut of filters and photoshop actions and although there are one or two which seem to be on the right track - NiceNiche for example, again it's not quite there.
I'm assuming the majority of you guys are US based but are you aware of the UK strip artists Frank Bellamy and Mike Noble? I'll post up some samples if required but the point is that these guys used a system of painting with translucent waterproof ink over indian ink lineart on a very glossy hot pressed art board called CS10 (not made any more apparently) and the results were simply stunning - solid black lineart with fully bled colouring which, because of the translucence of the ink, allowed the white of the board to shine through. A VERY time-consuming process - Noble took a full week to do 2 pages - but IMHO the style of work these guys produced has never been equalled to this day but I am SURE - although don't ask me how - that if we could just work out that missing step or two we would be able to make CGI strips much more popular in the eyes of the fans and thus - importantly to us - the commissioning editors.
It's not just a case of drawing lineart around a render and although it's possible to post-render in a painted/hybrid style, it takes so darn long (for me anyway) that I'd be just as well breaking out the pastels and oils and dumping the tablet. It CAN be done, of course, in post-render if you have the time and energy to devote to it but we're talking about a process which should allow us to create a 22 page comic to these very high standards every month. Even the fastest traditional artists like Big John, Jack K or the Byrnester can maybe do 22 pencilled and inked pages but I've never heard of anyone who could colour that number as well on a regular basis but the REAL beauty of CGI is that we don't have to worry about the colouring as it is created as part and parcel of the process. What we could potentially have here is a way to maintain that high quality of output by ONE artist alone. I know that Marvel in particular are doing very well with their new batch of artists filched from the games developers but it's still a team effort and thus still expensive to produce. If we managed to get this process right we could be looking at comics being the true reflection of the artist's vision because that artist will have procuded the whole damn thing himself and I just have this very strong feeling that the work being done here at HIP is bringing us closer and closer to that point.
I still have a couple of ideas to try out and like I said earlier I'll keep you advised of the results - I keep thinking it's going to be a Homer moment as in "D'oh!! Why didn't I think of that before??".

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Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:49 am
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Post Bellamy and Noble
You are absolutely right about the time consuming aspect of creating comix, especially when you are in experimental mode. Trying to find stuff on your computer is hard work too, I have to search now with windows explorer.
I haven't heard of that plugin you mentioned, I'll have a look for it.
Can you link to some of the best examples of Bellamy and Nobles work just to give us an idea ?

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Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:56 pm
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If you follow this link:

http://www.4shared.com/dir/3043021/8ff1 ... aring.html

and d/load the file "XL5 mini Graphic Novel" you'll get some of Mike Noble's best work - ignore the cover tho' as that's one of mine under my "non-adult" pen-name.
The strip ran in "TV21" comic in the 1960's at 2 pages per week and we (the guys at Project 21) are currently scanning an archive of all the issues as they are incredibly hard to find but they contained some of the best UK artwork ever produced.
I'll look out some Bellamy art in a wee while - Noble was the most technically accomplished of the pair but Bellamy had a real flair for dynamic layout and dramatic poses and DC were once so eager to have him that they gave him an open offer to work carte blanche on any of their titles he wanted - although sadly he died before he was able to take them up on it.

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Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:10 am
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Here are a couple for Frank Bellamy:


http://lambiek.net/artists/b/bellamy_frank.htm

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryRoom.asp?GSub=12998


As you will see, the 2-page spreads were especially breathtaking - if you want to see any more give me a shout as one of my other projects (one of the VERY many!!!) is collecting every piece of art these guys ever produced.

Back to the main thrust of the piece, however, I really believe that in the right hands CGI art could produce similar results to these guys but in a much shorter time - even simple background skies for example might have taken them 2 days to create as the ink had to be completely dry before they could move on and painting on CS10 is a bit like painting on plastic in that respect but we have the advantage of zipping in backgrounds in a matter of seconds - it's just a question of "bending" the software to aloow us to achieve that dynamic edge to the work that we have to sort out.
Back to the tablet, then.....

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Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:27 am
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"Achtung!
Spitfires!"

Reminds me of those old Commando comics where WW2 was basically an affair between Britain and Germany and where the Pacific War was actually focused on Burma.
Incidentally, most of those old Commando comics were drawn by Italian artists.

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Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:43 pm
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Post Fireball XL5
I'm really familiar with Fireball XL5 because it was a TV show back in the 60's ? The rocket with it's red and orange colors is something I've seen many times before. Plus that view of the cockpit, all glass, with the holes running through the metal fuselage.
All those scenes can be done today with poser , PSD and Vue 5. Aurora photoshop plugin can render custom skies, also Vue and Bryce. Vanishing point site might even have Fireball XL5, the guy who runs the site is mad on Doctor Who and the Thunderbirds, and British scifi shows. I was born in England and was brought up on that stuff but it was such a long time ago. I was about 7 or 8 years old so I can't remember whether Fireball XL5 came after after the Thunderbirds or before it. I love the bright colors they use and how they contrast against each other. Yes, they were brilliant for their day but now it can be done digitally.
:wink:
Billy, you haven't got anything on Supercar, just for old times sake. Wasn't that Gerry Anderson's first attempt at an animated puppet TV show ?

I've just clicked on the Bellamy link. His stuff kinda looks familar too, he
was a brilliant comic illustrator. Westerns, Thunderbirds, 21st Cenury comic strips. just great ! Thanks for the links !
PS: Where can I read the full comics ?

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Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:06 am
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Post Achtung!! For you Tommy ze war is over!!!
The Connamdo books were - and still are - produced by D C Thompson about 20 miles away from my house. I did a bit of work for them years ago - as did just about every british artist or writer at some stage. Everyone agrees thay were the best training ground for anyone starting out professionally in the industry but no-one stayed with them long because the pay rates were so low. That's the reason they used so many Italian and South American artists - the money was poor for UK artists but much more than foreign artists would get in their home countries.

BadaBoom - good memory you have there, mate! The XL5 show was made in 1962 in glorious black and white and was follwed by Stingray - Anderson's first colour show - and then Thunderbirds. Supercar was immediately prior to XL5 and Anderson's first SF show. He'd done a western show called Four Feather Falls and a show called Twizzle before that. There is at least one dedicated "Supercar" site on Yahoo and I can probably dig up more if you need it. The cartoon ran in TV Comic and then TV21 in the early 60's but you'll struggle to find any comlete stories as they simply aren't on the net - not even the newsgroups. That's why I created the Project 21 group to scan all these forgotten comics for posterity before they are lost forever. If you join the "scanarama" group and "Project 21" you'll get 2 or 3 old copies posted per week but if you're a BIG fan I could probably put together a CBR file of the TV21 supercar strips for you - just let me know.

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Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:06 am
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Post Stingray
I totally forgot about Stingray until you mentioned it I can actually hear the theme music playing in my head. That was the car that went under water but when they turned it with the lights shining on it, you could actually see the strings holding it up! It didn't matter, it was still great kids escapist entertainment for the times. Did they have any superbabes back then. I remember Miss Penelope ?
I don't want you to go to a lot of trouble, mate. I'll check Scanarama first.

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Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:44 pm
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Post Anderson Superbabes
Superbabes? Now you're asking the right bloke about that subject dude!!
Leaving aside the puppet characters (ouch! splinters in awkward places!!) you need to check out UFO, Anderson's first live-action series. Moonbase was staffed by a group of honeys in skintight silver catsuits with purple wigs (no, seriously, I know it sound wierd but they look great!!) and the boss-gal went by the name of Gay Ellis played by actress Gabrielle Drake (sister of the singer Nick Drake) who was - and still is - fekking GORGEOUS!!!! Look her up on the net, pal - you will not be disappointed - and I've got a nice wee collection of stills somewhere if your taste buds are salivating - just give me a shout!
Come to think of it the girl who played Lady Penelope in the Thunderbirds movie was pretty damn hot as well - one of the few good things about that debacle! Might have to go watch it again now.....
Hmm - all this nostalgia is giving me ideas for a new HIP comic strip...I wonder...

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Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:46 am
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Post Re: Anderson Superbabes
Morpheus wrote:
Hmm - all this nostalgia is giving me ideas for a new HIP comic strip...I wonder...

Perhaps a mad creative genius gets ahold of some weird magic power that lets him stage a life size Marrionation production using real women bound to his will. That would probably bring Jay Petto and the rest of the puppet girl crowd a'runnin'.... :shock:


Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:17 am
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Post Animated puppet shows
I haven't been able to find anything on those old animated puppet shows. Do you have a link, Morpheus ?

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Last edited by BadaBoom on Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:35 pm
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Post Gerry Anderson Puppet links
I reckon your best bet would be to check out the "TECHNODELIC" site

http://www.technodelic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Home.htm

which is about the best I've found so far - it tends to concentrate on the comic strip versions of the programmes but there are loads of links to associated sites which focus on the individual series. There are also some groups on Yahoo - type in "Gerry Anderson" and you'll get a good list of options. I joined the Fireball XL5 group there as that's my favourite puppet series but I know there is at least one Supercar group as well.
Good hunting, dude!
p.s.sorry for delay again - I don't seen to be getting updates when new emails arrive - I'll have to check it out.

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Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:12 am
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Post Working for the man
Hi Morpheus
I've just been reading your 'spotlight' but I can't reply there because the post is locked. I gave away 'working for the man' back in 1990. I'm interested to see your hand drawn stuff. I'm still looking for fireball XL5. I bet there are a few clips on youtube. I love using 'the white' on a separate layer which you can only really do when you composite. To create movement. Cheers

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Thu May 22, 2008 11:25 am
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The entire 39 episode Fireball XL5 series was released here on DVD a couple of years ago but with the regional variations in DVD's that may not be much use to you if you're not in the UK. They were also out on video tape about 10 years ago but gawd knows whether you'll be able to find any of them now. My best suggestion for this - and also the Supercar series - would be to keep an eye on the torrent sites as they have popped up there from time to time.
My hand-drawn art - at least the adult material - was all bought by a European site called "The Drawing Palace" but they, along with many others, have been hit by the major credit card companies refusing to process membership subscriptions to such sites so they basically had to shut down the operation overnight. I think the site is still open but here won't be any new material there. If you REALLY want to see some I can post a few samples to my 4shared site but BE WARNED - the material is MUCH more graphic than what we do at HIP.
If you're interested in comic strip version of Gerry Anderson series I think there is still a copy of my Fireball XL5 graphic Novel on 4shared amongst my non-adult material - I'll check it out and if it's not there I'll post it for you.
Cheers!

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Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:45 am
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Post Re: Combining CGI and Hand-Drawn artwork
I think the advantage of Poser over drawing is the stuff is rendered for you and saves you tons of time from hand drawing stuff. In the time it takes you to hand draw something, you can set up a render and save the file and then crank out tons of stuff based off that one fire.

I have tried mixing mediums, but i've gone the route of Poser renders and Photoshop manipulations.

You render the 'costume' and layer it on a photo.

It actually looks pretty good. (imo.)

Here's a sample of what i mean...

http://guests.hipcomix.com/gallery2/mai ... ewsIndex=1

The costume is totally rendered, and positioned over the photo for the effect i want. Photoshop is also good for typesetting and making mock comic covers or comic panels too.

I did the panel work on this one to make it look more like a comic book.

http://guests.hipcomix.com/gallery2/mai ... ewsIndex=1

Just my two cents on the topic of mixing mediums ^.^

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Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:38 pm
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